The world’s leading expert on aluminum toxicity said it would be “catastrophically stupid” to spray the skies with alumina nanoparticles, as geoengineer David Keith plans to do over Tuscon this year.

Professor Chris Exley PhD, group leader of the Bioinorganic Chemistry Laboratory at Keele University, UK, has studied aluminum toxicity for 34 years; how it causes Alzheimer’s disease and what we can do to protect ourseves from it.

Airborne alumina nanoparticles can directly enter our brains through the hippocampus, and particles less than 100 nanometers can cross directly into cells – and reach the nucleus – without any help.

He explained how alumina slowly dissolves inside our bodies, releasing highly poisonous Al3+. When it reaches a certain point, cells kill themselves (programmed cell death, or apoptosis) and this is the mechanism of Alzheimer’s.

Alzheimer’s has been the number one cause of death in the UK for the past two years.

He has also proved that iron – which alongside aluminum is also being found in high concentrations in rainwater – magnifies the oxidative stress on neurons by a factor of ten, accelerating the progression of the disease.

He said we can protect ourselves from aluminum toxicity by regularly drinking water rich in silicic acid, such as Fiji Water.

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TRANSCRIPT

Chris Exley: Hello, Chris Exley.

Patrick Roddie: Hello Chris, hi, it’s Patrick, thank you so much again for agreeing to chat with me. As you know I research geoengineering and one of the proposals is solar radiation management and many geoengineers have discussed the possibility of using alumina, and you know aluminum toxicity like no one else and I’m not gonna ask you to say “oh I believe it’s already happening” which – well I do – but I really want to pick your brains – if you’ll excuse the pun – on your career studying aluminum toxicity, specifically the Alzheimer’s connection, how aluminum can cause amyloid clumps and so on; also the effect of iron and the debate whether – and the fact that it is still a debate – on whether aluminum causes Alzheimer’s finally how silica can protect us.

It has been discussed particularly by David Keith that we use nanoparticulate alumina amongst other things – barium and so on – and if this was to be implemented what would be the human health impact of such a program?

CE: That’s a slightly different approach to the one that I regularly have to deal with which is that that will tell me that it’s actually happening now and that and you know I often say that there is no one on this earth who is more concerned about human exposure to aluminium than I ambut my position is always comes from one where we need evidence and we don’t just need evidence that someone collected in their back garden we need as strong and rigorous and possibly peer-reviewed scientific evidence as possible of anything where we’re trying to implicate aluminium in any in human disease.

It’s difficult enough to do that with the very best science and so this is where to certain extend a lot of the use of alumina in geoengineering arguments completely fall apart because there is nothing there to support them. We even did a small study here at Keele about 18 months or so ago where we measured aluminium in rainfall we have a little weather sector here at Keele so we were able to collect rainfall over period it’s a student study so it’s just over 12 weeks measured the aluminium content of rainfall just out of interest really and we found nothing unusual – let’s put it that way – during that period of time so it’s it’s one for me that if and and I know that they I mean even the Research Councils here in the UK one of them EPSRC actually had a program several years ago on geoengineering which they since – we are told – you know stopped – it doesn’t exist anymore – where they were in the first instance the plan was to just look at water aerosols just as a proof of concept before they thought about using any other type of aerosol in a climate engineering manner and if they were planning to put alumina into the atmosphere it would be beyond a joke. I mean it would be catastrophically stupid and then people like myself would be extremely vocal about it.

PR: Well, for the sake of this conversation let’s just talk about it as a proposal. Aluminum – sorry aluminium – I call it aluminum I’ve been here so long is everywhere. This phone I’m using is largely made of aluminum. It surrounds us it’s in all kinds of things and obviously I’m aware that the smaller the particle the more bioavailable it is, whether it’s inhaled or ingested orally there are different and particle sizes – there are a lot of factors. I remember I think it was in the 80s, the Camelford disaster that was the first time I realized. 1988 yeah. Was at the event that got you interested in studying this?

CE: No, I started quite a lot before then. I started when I was a student at Sterling University working on aluminium toxicity in fish so that was 1984 and I started my work.

PR: So that’s 30 years – more – you’ve been studying this?

CE: Absolutely – it’s been my whole academic life.

PR: What does aluminium do when it gets inside your body and also there’s aluminum and alumina – alumina being Al2O3 – sapphire is alumina.

CE: Yeah, there are many many minerals that are made of aluminium, absolutely right. What you have to understand about aluminium first of all and to be honest with you you can get all of this through my blog my website and my papers so I’m going to give you a very brief summary of it.

First of all it has absolutely no biological function in any living organism so the only thing that we know aluminium to do is to be toxic and we know it’s toxic because it kills fish in acid lakes, it kills trees we know that on those rare occasions where aluminium has got into human tissues it has caused toxicity.

An example of this being something called dialysis encephalopathy where people on renal dialysis machines receive large amounts of aluminium which went into their brains, was neurotoxic and produced a sort of immediate madness followed by death so the neurotoxicity of aluminium, the toxicity of aluminium – all of these things are absolutely in stone they are not controversial in any way whatsoever.

The controversy really is is everyday exposure to aluminium. Does our everyday exposure to aluminum for example contribute to chronic human diseases such as Alzheimer’s disease and again this is that’s a subject area I’ve been working on for more or less thirty years and now even in Alzheimer’s disease and it’s only recently in fact last year I published a paper which where I put my head on the block to say that I now believe the evidence is so strong that when aluminium reaches a certain concentration in brain tissue it will be a major contributor to Alzheimer’s in fact I went as far as saying that it’s highly likely that if there was no aluminium in brain tissue there would not be Alzheimer’s as in the normal lifetime of individuals.

So initially you’re talking about many many different ways in which we are exposed including some of the ones you talked about and one in which one it would be relevant in the geoengineering scheme would be potentially its uptake through your nose and your lung and again you might be talking about the type of aluminium being an aluminium oxide as you mentioned alumina. Aluminium oxides can be quite inert in other words if you take a a grain or take a little piece of alumina and drop it into a glass of pure water it doesn’t instantly dissolve to give you free aluminium which is the form of aluminium which is toxic but it does dissolve over time and in a biological environment it is a source of biologically available aluminium.

So there are almost no inert forms even your phone if you dropped it into some water over time there would be – slowly but surely – the release of some free metal from its surface. But those those types of aluminium which are potentially more toxic are those that deliver the free form of the aluminium the aluminium is that combined all the biological molecules most quickly and so yes you get different types of reactions and different types of responses to different forms of aluminium arising by a different routes but you know one of the I think one of the more worrying aspects of an aerosol aluminium is that the route for example via the nose which takes you by something called the olfactory system, it is actually a very very efficient way of getting something into the brain where it doesn’t have to go across the blood-brain barrier there is a route directly from the nose from the olfactory system into a part of the brain called the hippocampus and we know this of course because it’s no coincidence that people take drugs by this route because it gets to the brain rapidly.

Now alumina particles could very quickly get to our brains because of their inhalation from the atmosphere. These alumina particles in the first instance will not be immediately toxic, well unless they’re in very very large amounts but that’s unlikely, but they would go into the brain and they would probably stay there and they would be slowly processed and they would be slowly dissolved over time and they would add to all the other ways in which we are all exposed to aluminium in our everyday life and so they will contribute substantially to the aluminium burden in brain tissue. And that that would be a significant worry I mean at the moment we are also exposed to aluminium in you’ve probably heard of these things PM10s, PM5s PM2.5s; PMs as the particulate material. Many of the particulate materials that are naturally present – “naturally” in inverted commas, “natural” was the wrong word but which are present in the air that we breathe also includes some aluminium with them so they are also contributing to aluminium so it would be one additional factor and an additional factor that personally I think you know is it would be one too far in terms of adding to the possible toxicity of aluminium in humans.

PR: What actually is Alzheimer’s and what happens to the brains of sufferers as the disease progresses and what part do you see aluminium playing in that pathology?

CE: Alzheimer’s is a continuum in many ways. The first thing that happens in Alzheimer’s disease is probably that neurons which are responsible for certain activities start to work less well. We call it become dysfunctional so it doesn’t mean that they’ve died it means that they’re no longer functioning as well as they should do and these neurons then become under increasing pressure increasing stress over years and indeed decades and it’s until a point comes when the neuron is no longer a viable operating system, an operating cell and we have a system in our bodies for getting rid of cells that are no longer working properly it’s called apoptosis it’s called programmed cell death and probably what happens is either a neuron dies because of programmed cell death or indeed it could die from a more, we call it a necrotic insult a more acute type insult and once you start to then lose neurons you’re not only losing not only impairing function you’re impairing function more rapidly but you have no sort of regeneration you have no ability to be able to respond to that the robustness within the system goes.

So quite quickly once you start to get a rapid loss of neurons you then get all of the obvious and clear symptoms of Alzheimer’s that people know about and so the disease itself may well be inherent within somebody for say ten years before clear and obvious symptoms will occur and the way that we think that aluminium contributes to this is simply or more like a threshold effect because we accumulate aluminium in our neurons in our brain tissue with age and depending on our environment and what we do what we where we are what we’re exposed to how we live our everyday lives we all have different amounts of aluminium in our brain tissue and so some of us accumulate more than others some of us have a more robust response to it so it does so the same amount of aluminium has less effect you know there are many ways in which you can automatically protect yourself against things like well against Alzheimer’s disease one is physical exercises one and we think that the reason behind that of course it’s because they’re all or one possible reason behind that is that because one of the main ways that the body excretes aluminium is through sweating so you by physical exercise you keep as much aluminium out of the body as possible.

So there are ways and means that different people under different circumstances respond differently to an increasing body burden of aluminium or brain burden of aluminium but at some point the aluminium in a neuron the nerve cells of the body gets so high that it either kills the neuron outright or the neuron decides to kill itself and then you start to manifest some of the really disruptive effects that you see in Alzheimer’s and the later stages of Alzheimer’s.

PR: One other question: Alzheimer’s is a form of dementia and dementia it’s been around a long time – Dickens was talking about “aging parent” who was with dementia but Alzheimer’s itself is a relatively new disease my research has shown that – at least the CDC -has in 1979 they reported 847 I think deaths now it’s over 116,000 per year this is these are US deaths from Alzheimer’s It has increased a lot. If you took a section of a brain from an old-fashioned common or garden dementia patient victim – this would be post-mortem – versus a brain from the body of an Alzheimer’s sufferer, can you see visual differences with Alzheimer’s?

CE: The first thing you’ve got to appreciate is that the main risk factor for Alzheimer’s disease is aging. So aging is the main risk factor so you get that you’ve got more chance of getting Alzheimer’s the older you are so longevity; the fact is that obviously we now live much longer means that we will have a higher instance Alzheimer’s disease and so you know the difference in longevity of men and women has gone up from well I don’t know the turn of the last century probably around 50 to 60 years of age all the way through now to 80 years of age so there’s already a huge additional window in which to develop the disease.

Now in terms of what is dementia, anything which can cause a disruption in neuronal functioning, brain functioning, could be described in some ways as a dementia so for example people who have a stroke often suffer a form of dementia although that dementia can often be reversible. It can often after a while some of the cognitive effects can can be recovered because of the ability to regenerate the tissue in those areas or regenerate some of the connections that were lost in those areas but to me Alzheimer’s disease is a pretty broad church, a pretty broad umbrella which encompasses the majority of what we understand as dementia today. Other forms of dementia which are not of the Alzheimer’s type are relatively rare by comparison so Alzheimer’s disease is what we today understand primarily as dementia but anything so for example you can have an alcoholic dementia. There are many many potential toxins which upon entering the brain could cause a form of dementia because dementia in that instance is simply the death of neurons in a particular area of the brain.

But Alzheimer’s disease which is as I said the most common form of or at least what we understand is dementia is something which is more progressive it happens over a lifetime and it is as I said the major risk factor for it is aging and since we know that’s one of the things that links it with aluminium because we also know that we accumulate aluminium in our brain with age as well.

PR: You wrote a paper in 2006. “Alumunium and iron but neither copper nor zinc are key in the precipitation of beta sheets of a beta 42 and senile plaque cores in Alzheimer’s disease.” This is in the Journal of Alzheimer’s disease. So when you have iron present as well does this accelerate the progress of the disease? What happens?

CE: Yeah, one of the things you’re always looking for is, okay so aluminium is neurotoxic and I mean is present in brain tissue but what’s the mechanism of neurotoxicity and one of the possible mechanisms and quite possibly the most important toxic mechanism is that aluminium is able to act as something called a pro-oxidant.

What that means is that where there is oxidative damage, let’s say in brain tissue and iron compounds are able to produce oxidative damage; if you have aluminum present as well the aluminium produces like a tenfold increase in that oxidative damage. It’s a pro-oxidant it really accelerates the damage that might have been due to an iron compound alone so you know the relationship between iron aluminium is probably quite a strong one with respect to the mechanism of aluminium toxicity and neurotoxicity in particular.

PR: That’s good to know. As an aside I do rainwater analysis. I live in San Francisco so we have relatively clean air. I’m a few miles from the ocean and since David Keith’s paper – he wrote a paper suggesting we use these photophoretic whatever you know he suggested using particles which included aluminum barium titanium and iron. So when I do my rainwater analysis I test for aluminum barium iron and titanium and my most recent one I did from last week had of course aluminum was 220 micrograms per liter barium and titanium were present as well but I had iron at 300 micrograms per liter so there is also iron coming down in the rain I’m not saying oh it’s absolutely from the planes, but it’s it’s present in the air at least and the two of those things together are not are not good I believe.

CE: In terms of synergisms or in terms of things where one can make things worse than the other then yes, aluminium and iron work work well together in that respect I mean obviously iron is something the body is used to handling, used to dealing with and so we have many many hundreds of thousands of years of human evolution where iron has been involved in that process so the body is well prepared for it is well prepared for oxidative damage of iron could cause we have lots of antioxidants.

What it’s not prepared for is in addition to that which is the aluminium so that’s you know aluminium is like I always call it now a silent visitor to the body it’s a Trojan horse type effect the body is just ill-prepared for the presence of aluminium whereas it is very well prepared for something like something like iron so it’s there combination yes this could be much much worse than it in fact than either of them alone.

PR: I’ve also read that aluminium and fluoride together can be quite… I mean there’s talk about the pineal gland can be adversely affected by the two things together.

CE: Yeah, one thing for sure, obviously fluoride is not good and if there was the possibility of aluminum fluorides forming in vivo, that would not be good either because they’d be able to displace things like phosphate and other essential molecules from certain different biochemical processes. The evidence, actual real scientific evidence that aluminium fluorides, flouroaluminates, form in vivo in the body is extremely weak. There’s lots of evidence where you can use flouroaluminates in cell culture systems to produce biological effects but those conditions that they’re required are so much more different than the any that can really realistically occur in the body.

One of my worries about fluoride is more to do with, so for example if you live in an area where your water is fluoridated the likelihood is the fluoride in yourwater can help aluminium in your gut get across into the into the bloodstream so fluoride increases the biological availability of aluminium.

PR: Not good. It also goes without saying to all of these materials particle size matters. Surface area per unit mass, the smaller the particle the more bioavailable it is.

CE: In terms of aluminium the smaller the particle the more likely it is to dissolve more quickly in a biological medium like a blood or some other biological fluid. It’s also got a possibility depending upon the size. Size will determine how it might be transported around the body so really small particles of aluminium, particles that might be called nano particles less than say a hundred nanometers in size some of these particles can access cells almost independently of any other mechanisms whereas larger particles they need to be taken up by specific mechanisms so yes size is important both for accessing different areas of the body and and subcellular areas as well but then also in the rate at which those particles can dissolve to release the biologically reactive form of aluminium which is Al3+.

PR: Before I forget I would like to ask you about your brain study he got hold over was it 60 brains and you were studying them was it what we started studying the aluminum load or were you looking at the gross pathology or tell me about that paper.

CE: Yeah what we did a human brain study which was published in I think 2012 and then another paper from that in 2013 where the first instance we measured the aluminium iron and copper in 60 human brains so this was really because we had such a fantastic opportunity to do this is it was really about trying to find out how much aluminium is there really in the human brain and so the first instance was all about really just getting the basic data and we managed to get in the case of aluminium here more than 700 data points for that.

We did a follow-up study where we related the different amounts of metal that we found aluminium copper and iron to pathologies related to beta amyloid which are pathologies which are related to Alzheimer’s disease and the published that also in the Journal of Alzheimer’s disease afterwards. So that was a large reference study almost in many ways and it is a very sort of eye-opening study so for me because it because we’ve done it and I think I think we’ve done the very best study on aluminium in human brain tissues ever been measured ever been carried out we we were very very careful about the possibility of extraneous contamination or anything of this sort I don’t think any other study has been so rigorous and yet we still found in many cases significant amounts of aluminium in brain tissue.

You know the reason to do this even but it’s just so not that many years ago if you were still here some people say oh there’s no aluminium in the brain I mean it’s ludicrous to say so but they do say it so you’d needed to produce the very best and strongest and most robust evidence to counter you know silly and ludicrous arguments like that.

PR: I’ve got a good one for you what you can put in for ridiculous arguments. I was speaking to someone … his job is to deny, “oh there’s nothing wrong, aluminium is fine” And he said what happens with Alzheimer’s patients … people have … when you have advanced Alzheimer’s that then makes you more susceptible, more of a sponge to soak up aluminium it’s like really but anyway I was an aside.

CE: Well this is the type of thing that you will get all the time. The fact that the fact that aluminium is a proven neurotoxin in countless animal models and indeed on those rare occasions where some poor individuals have had lots of aluminium gone into their brain and died terrible death should be enough for these individuals to realise that you know aluminium really is a problem and we really don’t want it in our brains. It doesn’t just accumulate at places of pathology. No, that’s not the case.

PR: The reason we’re even speaking is I saw that wonderful Age of Aluminium documentary – I think I think it was the right name of it – and you were telling me that the reason you get more of a concentration in the brain is because there isn’t the same cell turnover say like your epidermis.

CE: Absolutely the neurons last for your lifetime don’t they so they have an opportunity to accumulate. Your skin cells last a few days.

PR: And bones last longer. But I want to circle back to the brain study I’m sure in you know, in London’s Science Museum there must be some brains in jars that could be tested for aluminum because if you know I can imagine that people would say “well yes there is aluminum in brains now but there’s always been the case.” Is there any, has anyone ever tested for metals…

CE: The problem is that we we cannot … all historical brains sitting in jars are in some sort of fixative. That’s the reason why they’re still there they’ve been fixed in time and we know from actual studies carried out for for this particular purpose that these fixatives were always heavily contaminated with aluminium and still are today actually so you cannot measure aluminium content in anything other than deep frozen tissue so if we were to find somebody deep frozen in a glacier somewhere or something of that sort, then maybe we could do that but no, anything any fixed issue is of no use to us.

PR: Maybe actually I know it’s a little gruesome obviously anything to do with mortality is gruesome, perhaps some of these climbers on Everest may be able to help us out on that. I’m sure they’d be freeze-dried by now but it wouldn’t change the metal content.

CE: You know you’ve got to be deep-frozen. These things will stay you know if your normal freezer is about you know – 16, 17, 18 degrees something in there will last for a year before it starts to actually start to break down so you know minus 80 is where you need to keep something if you want it to stay more or less constant over time. So even though you know there may be some instances of individuals frozen in ice and something the likelihood is that what you get back will be very difficult to deal with highly likely to be heavily contaminated with any of the environment they’re in so yeah I mean we’ve thought about this a lot because we’re very interested to know when … I talked about the Age of Aluminum or the Aluminium Age when did it really start, and I honestly believe that the evidence points to it starting more or less at the same time as we learned how to take aluminium ores and create an aluminium metal and therefore aluminium salts and that was toward the mid to the end of the 19th century So aluminium that as something which is everywhere is a really new concept. I don’t know whether you’ve got you’ve got access to my blog on the Hippocratic Post, haven’t you?

PR: I haven’t actually looked there, I just went to your publications.

CE: If you look there, there’s an essay called “The Aluminium Age” which i think is a really good example of our raison d’être, what we’re doing, why we’re doing it, it’s well worth the reaches to get an idea of where we are coming from where our research comes from.

PR: One other thing I’d like to bring up I actually ordered some nano particulate alumina – 5 nanometer – from us-nano.com and the material safety data sheet says, well, basically it says it causes tumors when it’s injected into animals cancer forms and I know you’re mostly been studying the Alzheimer’s side of things but could you speak a little to neoplasms?

CE: Well the other areas I mean, the one thing about aluminium; when the aluminium age was in its infancy – so the early part of the 20th century – there are huge numbers of publications about the the carcinogenic effects of aluminium so it was actually first recognized more in as a carcinogen that anything else and for some reason or other that interest of aluminium as a carcinogen lapsed through the 40s and 50s and 60s and perhaps is now making a little bit of a comeback because we work on areas such as breast cancer and the most recent research with breast cancer really does implicate aluminium quite heavily in that disease so no I’m not surprised to hear the aluminium can be a carcinogen and bearing in mind – did you say these were five nanometer particles?

PR: Yeah.

CE: Yeah well these are going to be able to get access for example almost to the nucleus of a cell where aluminium can cause all sorts of all sorts of damage and therefore mutations and therefore potentially being carcinogenic so that doesn’t surprise me. Perhaps what surprises me that it’s actually written all the information.

PR: Oh absolutely I’ll send you the datasheet. When you order it there’s an extra $40 charge for a hazmat handling by FedEx. This is scary stuff.

CE: Absolutely, I mean you know I’ve got some things like you know the fingerprint dust at the police have used for years is made of a very very very fine alumina and I got a little jar of that on my shelf here but I wouldn’t open it I don’t want to breathe that stuff in – it’s bad.

PR: Absolutely, it’s creepy, it’s bad. So silica. Because people who have been following the geoengineering thing they people say “oh how do we get rid of these metals” so it was so refreshing when you mentioned when you drink Fiji Water water and then you test urine after drinking silica-rich water, the levels of silica matched the levels of aluminum coming out in your urine. So it does actually does it dislodge it? How does that work?

CE: Not exactly; what we’re saying is, my first research was on showing that silicon protected against acute toxicity of aluminium in fish so we now know that silicon is the natural way in which life has been protected against aluminium toxicity since the beginning of life on Earth. So waht the idea really is to say well can we use this concept to protect ourselves against aluminium toxicity and the simplest way to do that is to drink mineral water which is rich in silicon and now when I say silicon what I really mean is silicic acid, the soluble form of silicon.

What happens is that soluble form of silicon goes immediately, follows water from the gut into the blood and it’s able to form something called a hydroxyalumina silicate which can then be filtered by the kidney so it’s a way of facilitating the removal of aluminium from the body and this is an area now in terms of clinical trials we ran our first clinical trial on this back in 2006 and Alzheimer’s Disease so we’ve we’ve got a lot of research on this we’ve just published one on multiple sclerosis again you can access all of this through the blog or through my website so it’s all about the this unique inorganic chemistry that exists between silicon and aluminium because silicon or silicic acid has no other chemistry so it won’t react with any other metals, it won’t react with any organic molecules, it only reacts with itself actually at very high concentrations or with aluminium and this is a beautiful chemistry which protects life from biologically available in aluminium and we should be using it by drinking silicon rich mineral waters every day to protect ourselves from being in the Aluminium Age as I call it.

PR: And since we are now in the Aluminium Age people will say “oh it’s it’s it’s the most common element in the crust it’s a you know it’s always been around what’s the big deal? Don’t be concerned about Al2O3.” What has changed? Is it is it simply refining it brings it into the biosphere?

CE: Absolutely it hasn’t always been around. It has actually been excluded from biological systems and only man’s activities and again you you know read about this in the different areas I’ve told you and I’ve suggested you have a look at, but only man’s activities have changed this on primarily the main one was how to take an inert alumina silicate ore from the earth and from it make aluminium metal and from aluminium metal make aluminium salts and these are all much much more biologically available than the inert ores from which they came so that’s it, that’s the Aluminium Age, it came from man’s revolution in being able to make aluminium metal and in fact all of modernity, modern life today has depended upon that amazing piece of technology.

PR: And it’s cheap and plentiful – what could possibly go wrong? Unfortunately, you have found out. Well, I want to thank you so much for all of your expertise on this and I noticed that – I’ll put a link in here so people can support your work because I know … didn’t you have some funding issues halfway through your your brain study?

CE: Oh listen, we have nothing but funding issues now we cannot get any funding from any conventional sources we all of our research is now funded by philanthropy. It is impossible no one will fund, none of the government, Research Councils, major charities. No, aluminium is a dirty word they will not fund, it’s changed. It’s always been difficult within the last five years it’s it’s literally impossible no one gets funding for this type of research. So all of our research is funded through philanthropy.

PR: Well I suggest anyone listening to this if you can afford anything, send it to Chris, he’s doing, you’re doing God’s Work.

CE: We will be very grateful and we will put it to very little use that’s for sure. Yeah great to talk to you Patrick. Good luck good luck with your investigations.

PR: And thank you so much oh by the way before we leave I am going send you some information I came across an article in Science in 2013: Clarifying the dominant sources and mechanisms of cirrus cloud formation and they found that the cloud condensation nuclei up in the stratosphere… I’ll just read the abstract:- “Formation of cirrus clouds depends on the availability of ice nuclei to begin condensation of atmospheric water vapor although it is known that only a small fraction of atmospheric aerosols are efficient ice nuclei the critical ingredients that make those aerosols so effective has not been established we have determined in situ the composition of the residual particles within cirrus crystals after the ice was sublimated. Our results demonstrate that mineral dust and metallic particles are the dominant source of residual particles, whereas sulfate and organic particles are under-represented and elemental carbon and biological materials are essentially absent.” So somehow they are actually getting aluminum – not even alumina – aluminum being the cloud condensation nuclei, obviously I’m not put you know making…

CE: This is part of the basis I mean this is why weather control they do use salts and stuff don’t they to make things rain and stuff when they’re needed or to stop things from raining depending on what they want to do, so yeah be to provide nuclei around which you can form ice crystals and then you can initiate a certain cloud formation or something so it’s pretty well known yeah.

PR: And the fact that these metals, I mean they’re heavier than air even though they’re small I know and then the smaller the particle the more it can blow around and stuff but they’re finding metals heavy metals up there where pollens not even getting up there. So anyway that’s another thing. I will send you this as well. But yeah it’s an interesting thing and it’s good because a lot of people are just completely unaware that … because we’re so familiar with aluminum it’s in beer cans and it’s in all kinds of stuff and by the way also it has a creepy thing was the the this us-nano where I bought my five nanometer alumina stuff, uses include “cosmetics”

CE: Yeah, they’re in lots of cosmetics.

PR: And of course the underarm deodorant you know, that’s another thing. But again, thank you so much for your time and I’ll later send you a link and keep up the good work!

CE: We’ll keep in touch.

PR: Alright thank you so much.

CE: Okay thanks Patrick.

PR: Take care, goodbye.